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  Hunnic in Armenian  
Forum Discussion

Posting introduction

Türkic-Armenian symbiosis goes back to the time before Magna Armenia was divided between Romans and Persians, and the Türks, under different circumstances, used Armenian alphabet literally from the time of its introduction. The offered discussion addresses possible records of Hunnic language in Armenian alphabet, claimed to be transcribed to Hungarian. As a minimum, the story is worth knowing. 
Cultural History of the Steppes » Linguistic History » Hun Language?
http://steppes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=board22&action=display&thread=1369
Hun Language?
Post by ardavarz on Feb 24, 2011, 5:30am

Recently while searching the net I came across a stunning information. I found several posts in different forums dealing with the language of the Huns based on some documents allegedly discovered in Armenian monasteries. I was really stunned. How was possible that such a discovery has remained generally unknown? Hunnic language was a mystery for so long, but indeed there is stories in the old chronicles telling about Armenian missionaries gone amongst the Huns. For instance Zacharias Rhetor writes about the mission of Armenian bishop Kardost and his seven disciples who were amongst the Huns north of Caucasus in 515- 529 C.E. It is told that they have translated the Bible in Hunnic. So it sounds plausible that some information about Hunnic language (if not that very text or at least part of it) could survive amongst the unstudied books in Armenian monastery libraries. I have always hoped that these data will be found some day, that's why I decided to investigate this case. Unfortunately (for me) most of the information published online was in Hungarian and I had a hard time deciphering it by means of Google-translator and other online dictionaries. And here is what I found out so far:

The information is somewhat inconsistent. It appears some manuscripts have been found in the monastery of Surb Khach (Saint Cross) in Esfahan (Iran). But it is also told that copies exist in Matenadaran (Armenia). Some studies of these texts have been published in Armenian and allegedly could be found in National Library in Yerevan. Some hint that there is a Turkish translation too. I am unable to confirm or deny any of these statements.

I found a good article in English written by an Hungarian scientist - Béla Lukács - discussing this topic:
http://www.rmki.kfki.hu/~lukacs/DETREHUN.htm
The text by Csaba Detre to which the author of the above article refers is the following:
http://www.kincseslada.hu/magyarsag/content.php?article.271

I generally agree with the conclusions of the author B. Lukács. However, this article was written some time ago and it appears that some new data have been published, but again only in Hungarian. They concern the works of the late scholar priest Vahan Anhaghth Astvatzaturian. Here in his obituary notice can be found more information:
http://filozofia.wplanet.hu/tag_va.html
From the links in the bottom of this latter page can be downloaded textbooks and dictionaries of what he calls "Scythian B" or Hun language. I don't know where they are come from - maybe these are translations (French to Hungarian?) from Astvatzaturian's book "The Scythoid Languages" ("Les langues scythoides", Zarytos-Tyros, 1985) mentioned in his obituary notice. In contrast to Cs. Detre who uses Hungarian transcription for the Hunnic words and texts, Astvatzaturian has developed a latinized transliteration based on the original Old Armenian (Grabar) letters which doesn't employs any diacritics and avoids the ambiguity discussed in the article of B. Lukács. It is not clear still what are these "textbooks". Are they composed in Middle Ages (for training the Armenian missionaries?) or today based on linguistic materials from those old manuscripts?

And then I found a third source - another set of four "lessons" (again in Hungarian transcription) published by another author - Pető Imre:
http://osmagyar.kisbiro.hu/modules.php?n....a-486c7ac24c01f

It seems that all these texts are concerned with several closely related languages (I've noticed some differences in rendering of the words and the verbal conjugation) - V. A. Astvatzaturian calls them "Scythoid" although I don't think they have any direct connection with the language of the classic Scythians from Herodotus's time. This fits more the medieval loose use of the term "Scythian". But is this the long wanted Hunnic language? Of course, it would be difficult to say without a detailed study of the original Armenian texts which (as it seems) are still unpublished. Maybe this was the language of Sabirs as B. Lukács suggests (even though I've had the impression that Sabirs have spoken some Turkic language, but still there were also other Hun tribes around Caucasus). Or maybe we have some kind of common language used amongst different peoples in the Hun alliance loosely based on the original Hunnic? I tend to agree for the present with this latter conjecture.

Here are some observations I made while trying to study these "textbooks":

This "Hunnic" is an agglutinative language, but it doesn't seem to apply any vocal or consonantal harmony (in this respect it resembles Ossetian). Most of its vocabulary has cognates in Magyar (Hungarian), but it seems to contain a large amount of loanwords from many different languages.
(An almost comprehensive dictionary with Hungarian transcription is given here:
http://osmagyar.kisbiro.hu/modules.php?n....486c8a6329514). I've detected words which appear to be not only Turkic, but also Iranian, Germanic, Slavic, Armenian, and even Indian, Chinese and Japanese. Here are several examples:

Turkic: atha - "father" (< ata); jeti - "seven"; aji, haji - "moon" (< aj); qada - "duck" (< qaz); kapu - "gate" (< Old Turk. qapuγ).

Mongolian: chun - "warrior, man" (~ Mong. hün - "human"?).

Persian: azad - "free" (< āzād); mard - "man"; saath - "hundred" (< sad); hezer - "thousand" (< hezār).

German: landa - "land" (= Goth. landa); thal - "valey"; Ballakhalu - "abode of gods" (~ Valhalla?; however in Norse mythology it's the castle of the fallen heroes which in Hunnic is called "hideovara", being different from Ballakhalu).

Slavic: ladani - "palm" (= Rus. ladon'); serti - "heart" (~ Rus. serdtse); siri, shiri - "steppe, pasture" (~ Rus. shir' - "expanse").

Indian: shinga - "lion" (< Skt. siṃha); shend - "peace" (< Skt. śānti).

Chinese: hwan - "ten thousand" (< wan); ten - "sky" (< t'ien) (in the compound tenmard - "celestial man, god").

Japanese: nishe - "west" (~ nishi); hideo - "hero" (~ hidoi - "severe, awful").

Armenian: azdigh - "star" (~ astġ ?; cf. astłik - "little star, Venus"); lezu - "language" (= lezou).

Scythian: kutha - "dog" (< *kuti); bashte - "broad" (~ Oss. bästä - "land"); kuna - "book" (< *kunig).

Greek: theos - "the Christian god".

Latin: hovi - "sheep" (~ ovis).

Avestan: vara - "castle" (= vara - "enclosure").

Especially interesting are numerals. They form two different sets - one based on decimal and another on vigesimal (base-20) number system. Similar is the situation in Ossetian and Welsh languages.

In the textbooks are given fragments from more larger texts - epics dealing with historical and mythological subjects. Still, many things are unclear. For instance some of the texts in the "textbook" sound too modern - for instance from the lesson about astronomy (¹ 4 in Astvatzaturian 's textbook) it becomes clear that Earth is a planet and the Milky Way - a galaxy (azdighum - the word for "stellar cluster" is interpreted as "galaxy"). Are these texts really authentic or they have been designed today just to teach the language? Next Lesson 5 is about geography and it also contains several confusing passages. There is something which appears to be fragments from some obscure legend about the origin of Huns. Surprisingly it is related to a territory which seems to be Central or Western Europe (?!) - amongst the rivers mentioned are Rhine and Timish and the "oldest parts" were the "Big Peninsula", "Little Peninsula" and the "Islands". This country is called "Western Fatherland" (Nishi Athalanda) where the ancestors have lived in some big marshlands before being driven from there by a flood. Several names of "big tribes in the Fatherland" are given amongst which are clearly recognizable some Celtic tribes once lived in Britain and several Germanic from the continent. I doubt this legend refers to the time of Attila. Or maybe this is a disguised attempt to associate the origin of Huns with the myth of Atlantis (note the similarity with the word "Athalanda")? This really bewilders me and makes me unsure what to think about all these texts. Similarly in the Hun-Scythian-Hungarian dictionary by Pető Imre (see the link above; also in note 12 there) we can find the names of 25 Hun tribes - some of them can be understood etymologically through this language, but none is mentioned in any known historical source (at least as far as I know).

All this is very puzzling. Still, I don't want to dismiss the case just because it is weird and doesn't concurs with the current ideas. In fact I am afraid that it can be as well ignored and forgotten by mainstream science precisely because some people have begun to form bizarre ideas based on these data. The linguistic material is quite abundant - it seems enough to start a project for reconstructing or even to revive this forgotten language which (for me at least) is a fascinating possibility. Still it takes me too much time to study those texts without a previous knowledge of Hungarian language. So I hope someone who speak Magyar would shed more light on this subject.

Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Feb 24, 2011, 1:35pm

Its unknown for me, as I see, its 10 different ancient armenian sources (some in greek), written in Hunnic language but mostly with armenian letters. Very interesting. Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Feb 24, 2011, 1:56pm

Some examples :
Hun : Vojgum Athira Istahain Wusturje - Latin : Ego sum Atila Flagellum Dei
Hungarian : Vagyok Attila, Isten Ostorja - English : Im Attila, the scourge of God.

Hunnic : Asari Isechunkhkh (…) ontutta Asaret Asarasunihes (…) Asarinekh vikh amendachunkh voltukh. Chunkh ai anikh igebul vadoltuk. Isechunekh thaga Éjalana. Amenda azdigh chun ai ani. Asaront ai sertis okinta amenut.

English : Asari Isechunkh created the world to Asarasunin. All the Hun people are sons of Asari. The men and women are from the skies. The god's veil are the stars (the milky way). The last phrase is hard to translate : something like the creation of the world is the love of the stars, and the work of god together. Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Feb 24, 2011, 2:10pm

I dont know what is true about all these sources, I will look after afternoon, but after some reading, its clear that the Hunnic words and phrases in these codexes are understandable in Hungarian, the relation is very close and obvious with ancient Hungarian. There are also hundreds of Turkic words as well.

Hunnic can be a link between Finno Ugrian and old Turkic languages. Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Feb 25, 2011, 12:32am

So if anyone cares.

The source of the Hun (askatan language b) scripts are from several ancient manuscripts (like the codex of Isfahan, original in Iran) collected by the armenian language institute, and they are mostly from armenian monasteries. Dr. Csaba Detre, a hungarian linguist (he speaks fluent armenian) compared them with other sources found in several countries, and were known as unknown scythian texts, for exemple the codex of Crete, from Greece, and several others from Syria, Iraq, etc. Its commonly known among linguists that armenian language sources of other languages used to be the most phonetically equal to the original version. So what he tried is to read the armenian words of scythian texts in Hungarian. He found several hundreds of words he understood. The more interesting is that he found the grammar is closely related to ancient Hungarian as well.
With the help of these common words and letters, he could find out an other few hundred word too wich were unable to understand in Hungarian. He published his 20 years work in 2004 in a linguistic newspaper in Hungary.

Anhaght Astvatzaturian is an armenian priest scholar, born in Hungary, he spoked both language and he had better source for the manuscripts in the monasteries. According to him, there are at least 6 different scythian language in old armenian manuscripts. He found close relation between what he called Askatan a, b, and c language and hungarian. He died in 2009.

Askatan b language has very high number of common words with the codex of Crete, wich tell us about the language of the Scythes who invaded europe (The Huns) the Codex of Crete is created around 700 AD.

As I know, around 90% of the manuscripts in Armenia is not yet scientifically searched, so it may be an interesting topic for the future.

So the possibilities are the following :
1. Someone has the time to create thousands of words and phrases in Hunnic, even creates a complete grammar system.

2. its true.

Re: Hun Language?
Post by hjernespiser on Feb 25, 2011, 1:37am

I've heard of this before. The subject came up on the Hunnic language talk page on the English Wikipedia, as you probably saw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hunnic_language The problem is that no one has been able to produce alleged manuscripts. They were conveniently "lost". Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Feb 25, 2011, 2:41am

Well, Yerevan is not on Mars, so I hope someone will check it once. But to be honest I dont think many people exists who understand both old armenian and hungarian as well. Re: Hun Language?
Post by hjernespiser on Feb 25, 2011, 3:10am

http://hetivalasz.hu/english_hungary/academic-debate-25937

"The text is an Armenian-Hun glossary, and allegedly proves the relationship between Hungarian and the Hun language. What weakens the sensational impact of this ‘proof' (the research, theorising about the Hun language, is made on the basis of just a few words), is that its "discoverer", Csaba Detre, a retired geologist of Armenian origin, published the text in a children's colouring book. The source is said to derive from the Armenian monastery Surb Khach, located in Isfahan, Iran. "As in most cities in Iran, Armenians do live in Isfahan and its surroundings. However, such a monastery does not exist, and nobody has ever seen the text on a photo, a photocopy or a microfilm" -Miklós Sárközy, Iran expert and teacher at the Károli Gáspár University, told Heti Válasz. " Re: Hun Language?
Post by hjernespiser on Feb 25, 2011, 3:19am

Here's the link I was looking for: http://www.rmki.kfki.hu/~lukacs/DETREHUN.htm

"PROTO-MAGYAR TEXTS FROM THE MIDDLE OF 1st MILLENIUM? or Are they published or not?" Re: Hun Language?
Post by ardavarz on Feb 25, 2011, 5:59am

Yes, that was maybe the first webpage where I spotted this information. Then I found the article of B. Lukács (I think I did give the link above).

About the monastery I cannot be sure. There is really a big Armenian community in Esfahan. I saw myself an Armenian church there while I was in Persia about seven years ago. Our guide was Armenian too. Also I knew an Armenian immigrant from Esfahan - his name was Leo - but unfortunately I have lost his contacts and now I cannot ask him about that.

This situation resembles the case with some Volga Bulgarian sources like the chronicles "Jagfar Tārīhï" and the epic "Chulman Tolgau" the originals of which are not yet confirmed (we have only Russian translations). Nevertheless the information they contain has some interesting details which are very plausible. In fact - what I forgot to mention yesterday - I have found several close concurrences while comparing some allegedly Hunnic words in these sources with the vocabulary of those Armenian manuscripts.

Thus according to "Jagfar Tārīhï" bir (var. mir) was Hunnic word for "king" (f.e. in personal names like Balamber/Balamir, Malamir, Chelbir etc.). Now according to V. A. Astvatzaturian birum in Scythian B means "empire" or "alliance". He also tells (in Lesson 2) that suffix "-um" is used for creating abstract nouns (f.e. mady - "big, great" madum - "greatness, grandeur"). Likewise we can conclude that if bir is "king", then birum would be "kingdom".

Another Hunnic word from "Jagfar Tārīhï" is seber - "ally" (mentioned as explanation of the name of Sabirs). And here (in Pető Imre's dictionary) I found the word subir (shubir) - "összefogás" (alliance).

In Volga Bilgarian epic "Chulman Tolgau" the word "Scythian" is rendered as "asket" and here it is "ashkata".

Moreover the spirit of light and saviour of humanity in Tengrian pantheon of Volga Bulgars celebrated in the feast Nardugan (24/25 December) is called Mardukan. Through "Scythian B" this name could be explained as compound from mar - "human" and dogon - "spirit, moving force", thus meaning "human-spirit" ("anthropodaemon").

There is also other mythological parallels. In Lesson 7 of Astvatzaturian's textbook is given the legend about the founder of Scythian Kingdom (Ashkatan Birum) who united Scythian tribes (if I understand it correctly). His name is king Luvephej (lit. "horse-head") and the date is 5250 B.C.E. Now in Volga Bulgarian legends the first legendary pre-historic king is called Jam-Ijik, where "Jam" corresponds to Persian Jamshīd or Jam (= Avestan Yima, "Twin"), while the name Ijik means "horse". This legend has many variants and in some versions he is presented as several characters. One of them is called Ijik-Asparïk, where the second name is clearly a translation = Alanic name Asparukh which also means "horse head" (at least according some interpretations). The date of founding the Scythian Kingdom (Askïp) in the epic "Chulman Tolgau" is 5300 B.C.E. which, however mythical it may be, is very close to the above date from these Hunno-Armenian sources.

I really hope that these texts would be translated and published in full. I wonder where the Astvatzaurian's works can be found?(Unfortunately I don't know French either...) But I found this notice about some publication in Russian in the bibliography of Pető Imre's textbook:

- „Szkifo-grecseszkije textü” (oroszul, ZM-nek felajánlott kéziratok, eredetükről nincs közzétett információ – több mint 200 oldal Részletek még nem publikusak.

Maybe at least this can be found? Re: Hun Language?
Post by hjernespiser on Feb 25, 2011, 7:27am

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Eurasian_Nomads/message/89

Dear all,

I had a telephone conversation with prof Csaba Detre, to whom the Hun word list on the Web is associated. He told me an interesting story about the manuscripts, some of which have the relics of Hunnish language.

In fact the documents that appeared on the Web are not intended to publish this way. The story associated that is quite false. Several scientist have seen the manuscripts as early as the 1970's but in the communist regime it was a forbidden topic for Hungarian scientists.

Since than the manuscripts disappeared from the Armenian monastery (in the Esfahan province of Iran), and appeared at rich Armenian and Russian men. Although prof Detre has some connections to them, he was not allowed to publish any part of the manuscripts. Some of the Hungarian scientists who were involved in the case have died in strange circumstances. As Detre said, we must understand, that in the eastern way of thinking, this is a great treasury and not a scientific discovery. And the owners are trying to sell it in the western countries for as high as possible, thus they strictly forbid any publication regarding the manuscripts. Perhaps if the deal will be done, the manuscripts can appear in print in 2008-2009.

Although he did not mention the word mafia, I was aware what is he speaking about. There was a similar case two decades ago in Hungary.

That time a young soldier found a large Roman silver hoard, later named the Seuso hoard near the lake Balaton. Seuso was the Roman prefect of Pannonia and his name is written on a bowl of the treasury. The soldier was killed, and the hoard disappeared, though several photos of the objects were found by the police.

A few years ago the hoard reappeared at an auction in New York. It was obviously the same hoard as the one mentioned above, since the name of Seuso appered on one of the silver bowls, while on another the word Pelso (the Roman name of lake Balaton) was written. Of course the hoard was not returned to Hungary as it was regarded as having unknown origin, and now is privately owned...

Gabor Re: Hun Language? Post by hjernespiser on Feb 25, 2011, 7:31am

BTW, if you can read the archive on that Yahoo group, there's earlier messages from scholar Peter B. Golden in there regarding this manuscript. Re: Hun Language?
Post by hjernespiser on Feb 25, 2011, 7:37am

Feb 25, 2011, 5:59am, ardavarz wrote:
Thus according to "Jagfar Tārīhï" bir (var. mir) was Hunnic word for "king" (f.e. in personal names like Balamber/Balamir, Malamir, Chelbir etc.). Now according to V. A. Astvatzaturian birum in Scythian B means "empire" or "alliance". He also tells (in Lesson 2) that suffix "-um" is used for creating abstract nouns (f.e. mady - "big, great" madum - "greatness, grandeur"). Likewise we can conclude that if bir is "king", then birum would be "kingdom".

Heh, just FYI "birodalom" means realm or empire in Hungarian... Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Feb 25, 2011, 11:13am

It is actually. Luvephej, is Lófej is hungarian, means horsehead. Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Feb 25, 2011, 11:23am

About Imre Peto's texts, I wouldnt take them that seriously, Im not sure if he is a known scientist at all.
Csaba Detre even if he is more famous is not commonly known as well. So this whole thing has a chance to be a complete hoax.
The only thing that doubts me to be a hoax is the ammount and logic of the information, its too much and too logical.
Detre published his work 6 years ago and not much happened until now to confirm this.

Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Feb 25, 2011, 11:42am

A chinese linguist Uciraltu from inner mongolia, has found 600 Hunnic words in chinese sources, he published his work in 2008. He says 60 of these words he found is proven to be Hunnic. Uciraltu found that the words has Hungarian connection, so he decided to learn the Hungarian language to continue his research, he said breakthrough in results can be expected not before 2012-2013, he needs at least 5 years to learn the language. Im not sure if anyone compared the words he found with the words Detre found, but it would be an interesting topic as well.

Re: Hun Language?
Post by ardavarz on Feb 26, 2011, 12:43am

Feb 25, 2011, 11:23am, benzin wrote:
About Imre Peto's texts, I wouldnt take them that seriously, Im not sure if he is a known scientist at all.
Csaba Detre even if he is more famous is not commonly known as well. So this whole thing has a chance to be a complete hoax.
The only thing that doubts me to be a hoax is the ammount and logic of the information, its too much and too logical.
Detre published his work 6 years ago and not much happened until now to confirm this.

Yes, I agree. I have the same impression myself. Personally I think the texts of V. A. Astvatzaturian seem most credible. He at least gives the original Armenian transliteration of the Hunnic words and phrases. I hope his book about "Scythoid languages" can still be found (if not the original manuscripts). If that information is correct, it has been published in 1985 - it's a long enough time and I wonder why it isn't more known or translated so far. If one wants to investigate this case based on facts and not just rumors, this work would be a good starting point. This, I hope, would at least elucidate the circumstances about that discovery and give an overall picture, not just pieces of information. But where to find it?

When something is too logical I usually become suspicious, since then it feels like framed up. Here the information is really big and complicated, plus - as I wrote before - I found some concurrences with other sources which, even though similarly unconfirmed, have hardly been known to the authors of these Hunnic "textbooks". That's why I think maybe there is something real behind all this story. Re: Hun Language?
Post by ardavarz on Feb 26, 2011, 12:59am

Feb 25, 2011, 11:42am, benzin wrote:
A chinese linguist Uciraltu from inner mongolia, has found 600 Hunnic words in chinese sources, he published his work in 2008. He says 60 of these words he found is proven to be Hunnic. Uciraltu found that the words has Hungarian connection, so he decided to learn the Hungarian language to continue his research, he said breakthrough in results can be expected not before 2012-2013, he needs at least 5 years to learn the language. Im not sure if anyone compared the words he found with the words Detre found, but it would be an interesting topic as well.

That's interesting. I have read also about some findings in Mongolia containing specimens of Hunnic/Xiungnu writing. But I have no definite information - the article in Wikipedia gives only several examples compared with Chinese signs. Re: Hun Language?
Post by admin on Feb 26, 2011, 5:47pm

Feb 25, 2011, 7:31am, hjernespiser wrote:
BTW, if you can read the archive on that Yahoo group, there's earlier messages from scholar Peter B. Golden in there regarding this manuscript.

I couldn't access the archive so is it possible for you to post them here? Re: Hun Language?
Post by hjernespiser on Feb 27, 2011, 10:34am

OK. Technically you can just join the yahoo group, but it isn't very active and your forum here actually rivals that one ;) Now if we can only get Peter Golden here?

Here's what there is, not in any particular order:

------------------

Dear All,
Is this from a manuscript of Movses Khorenac'i/Moses of Chorene's History of the Armenians? If so, although the latter is attributed to the 5th century, but most scholars believe it was written in the latter part of the 8th century. That would put a very different spin on things. Several of the words are clearly Turkic or Hungarian:
Moon: (H)Ayi - ay
Gemini (Twins): Yerku (Twins) cf. Turkic ikiz "twins" - Oghur-Bulgharic *ikir/*yiker Hungarian iker (an old borrowing)
Leo: Kutha (Dog) - this looks a lot like Hungarian kutya which comes from the Ugric base of Hungarian
Virgo: Viragh (Flower) -also Hungarian (virag)
Capricornus: Beka (Frog) - also Hungarian, but ultimately of Turkic origin (baqa).

Frankly, this is all a bit suspicious. The words that jump out are all modern Hungarian forms or too close to them.

Peter B. Golden

On Aug 17, 2006, at 5:13 PM, Bihari Gábor wrote:

Dear Etienne,

I hope you do not mind if I post the answers also to the list - perhaps the same questions arise in others thoughts.

So the whole codex is written in Old Armenian with Armenian letters. Perhaps this is why the locals did not recognise its content. The geologist I mentioned is a member of the small Armenian community of Hungary, and although an amateur in linguistics, he is very well trained in Armenian history. As the work of Moses of Chorene is a very important source material for the history of the steppe nations, I'm sure he knows it well, especially because one of his friends translated it to Hungarian - perhaps he also contributed for that? I do not know... Thus the 5th century Armenian text probably did not cause serious difficulties for him to understand and to copy by hand.

Here follows the part for the celestial things:
Moon: (H)Ayi

Venus: Feni

Mars: Verilun

Jupiter: Pralun

Saturn: Yalalun


Milky Way: Eyalana

Ursa Maior: Lubba (Sthingy)

Orion: Würen (perhaps Guard)

Gemini (Twins): Yerku (Twins)

Cassiopeia: Bollob (?)

Draco: Shash (Eagle)

Corona Borealis: Einaia (?)

Leo: Kutha (Dog)

Cygnus: Gize (Cross)

Sagittarius (Archer): Viyeshi (Archer)

Scorpius: Yiyeti (perhaps Crab)

Aries: Doitieloia (?)

Auriga: Pshak (Wreath, Crown)

Taurus: Bara (Spear)

Virgo: Viragh (Flower)

Capricornus: Beka (Frog)

Canis Maior: Chun (Man, Warrior)

Aquila: Viyu (Bow)

Delphinus: Kaluynijishegh (Rhombus)

Best,

Gabor



Etienne de la Vaissičre <vaissier@... írta:

Thanks for the answer. However how did he manage to first copy the manuscript (pahlavi is an especially awful script for non- specialists) and then to have it deciphered and translated ? It seems that in the last months there were quite a lot of fakes coming from iran (especially a fake avesta on gold plates). But I will be very interested to read the list and have details
yours


Etienne

Le 17 aoűt 06 ŕ 13:39, Bihari Gábor a écrit :

Dear Etienne,

The genuineness of the codex is really an important question. The man who have seen it, asked for permission to make some photos, but it was forbidden by the abbot (excuse me I do not know the proper word for muslims) of the closter. Thus he copied some pages
and put the translation to some Hungarian pages.

The man itself is one of the best known Hungarian geologists, he
was
the leader of a research group on the meteorite impacts at the International Geological Society. Thus, he surely is not a "crackpot".

Which is not a perfect proof, but enough to deal with the question.

The other proof is, that there are too logical consequences of these words and a forger must be a genius to fabricate such a list.

For example the Hunnish word for sword is "surr" which can perhaps be linked to the Hungarian werb "sur", meaning "to stick in(to)", and perhaps even to the Germanic words for sword and the Old High German word sweran "to hurt". At least these Germanic words have no cognates out of the Germanic group in other IE languages.

I will send a part of the word list for discussion soon.

Best regards,
Gabor

Etienne de la Vaissičre <vaissier@... írta:

Dear ister

I have already forwarded your message to the sogdian-l.

What is this codex ? How do we know that it is genuine ?

yours

Etienne de la Vaissičre
-------------------------

Dear Peter,

I do not know anything about the author of the manuscript. If anyone
knows a bit of Hungarian, the word list can be found at several
pages when searching for the name of the discoverer, Detre Csaba.

A possible link is:
http://www.kitalaltkozepkor.hu/hun_szavak.html

I think otherwise, that the case is more refined about the Ugrian
and Altaic words. For example the first part of the name of the
Milky Way "Eyalana" can be attributed to the Hungarian word "éjjel
(eyyel)" which means nighttime.

The word "kutha" (dog) is probably an Indo-iranian loanword either
in Hungarian, see Hindi "kutta".

As far as I can recall, the word "beka" have also a cognate in the
Indo-iranian languages, thus these are must be quite international
words in the Central Asian area.

The only Hungarian-like word left is really similar Viragh - but
this is also interesting, since it can be a folk-etymology of the
Latin name Virgo

While it is true, about the third of the words in the list have
Hungarian cognates. Some of them are quite basic words, thus perhaps
a linguist would consider it to be an Ugrian language. Though too
strange for us, Hungarians, so I guess it is more near to the Ob-
Ugrian languages. For example the word "chun" meaning man -
obviously the source for the name Hun - reminds me to the national
name of the Chanty, one of the Ob-Ugrian tribes.

While I do not know much about the Turkic languages so I cannot
recognise Turkic cognates.

Soon posting another part of the list.

Best,

Gabor
--------------------------
Dear Gabor,
Many thanks for the link. I read Hungarian. I take it this is from a forthcoming book - which I will await with great eagerness. A rushed look at the entries indicates to me a sizable number of words that are virtually identical with Modern Hungarian forms. This does raise some questions. Although the question of Ugric-speaking groups in the Ponto-Caspian steppes and extending into the Caucasus in the 5th century is rather early for any of the reconstructions of pre-Conquest era Hungarian (honfoglalás előtti magyarság) history, I would not automatically rule it out. But, I would expect forms of words that differ, in many instances, quite considerably, from the modern forms.

Hung. béka "frog" is ultimately part of the Altaic stock (see Starostin et al., "Etymological Dictionary of the Altaic Languages," II, p.920). It is a borrowing from Turkic into Hungarian, Persian and some other languages (see Sevortian, "Etimologicheskii slovar' tiurkskikh iazykov," II (1978), pp.40-42).

Benkő et al. "A magyar nyelv történeti-etimológiai szótára," III, p. 1151, consider virág ("flower") a variant of világ "light") and cite a variety of Indo-European semantic parallels light-flower. It is an interesting hypothesis.

Khanty has been explained as deriving from a term meaning "person" *kunta etc cf. Hung "had" "army" (Khanty "xânt" "army"). Whether this has anything to do with word or ethnonym Hun (the original form of which is far from clear) is uncertain. Németh ("A honfoglaló magyarság kialakulása, 2nd ed. Bp., 1991), p. 57 attempted to connect hun, kun/qun, kün, kümün, xum, kum etc., all denoting, "person, people" etc. but this, as far as I know, has not found wide acceptance.

In terms of the new codex, one would have to explain why there appear to be Turkic and Ugric (Hungarian) words in "Hunnic". This is possible, but it will require a great deal of argumentation, not to mention a recasting of early Hungarian history.

I guess I will have to wait for the book - hopefully it will include a facsimile of the Armenian text.

Best,
Peter
------------------------
Dear Gabor,
Many thanks for the link. I read Hungarian.

Surprising but great news!
So than you can read some good books on our topic! I think you would like my book on the origin of the Szeklers (Sekeys).

Although I'm not linguist, and not even historian, I jumped into the nomadic topic a few years ago (I dealt with nuclear physics - radiometric dating methods and natural radioisotopes - before I became a freelance writer). My method is quite new in this field and quite close to the natural sciences and mathematics. I was trying to find correlation between place names and basic words of different languages / tribe names, etc. First I tested the method on basic Iranian words and Scythian tribe names, and I found interesting correlations between some groups of Iranian-like place names and the Szeklers. Which was only an interesting hint, until I realized that these place names draw up a special pattern on the map: the Roman road system of Pannonia and Dacia with some linking roads on the plains area between.

I'm testing the method now on the Sarmatians / Alans - strangely nothing serious appearing in Britain, while the south of France and north of Spain seems to be heavily settled by them...

I take it this is from a forthcoming book - which I will await with great eagerness.

I tried to reach the geologist in question, but couldn't. I was working with him regarding the meteorite impacts, but since than he retired and almost disappeared from the scene - perhaps he is spending a lot of time in Armenia and Iran.

A rushed look at the entries indicates to me a sizable number of words that are virtually identical with Modern Hungarian forms.

While there are other words, that are quite different, although probably have Hungarian cognates. As a physicist, I know, my feelings must not be involved in the process, and I am not an expert, so I leave open the possibility of the fake.

This does raise some questions. Although the question of Ugric- speaking groups in the Ponto-Caspian steppes and extending into the Caucasus in the 5th century is rather early for any of the reconstructions of pre-Conquest era Hungarian (honfoglalás elõtti magyarság) history, I would not automatically rule it out. But, I would expect forms of words that differ, in many instances, quite considerably, from the modern forms.

You probably would find interesting the book (2005) of a member of the Academy. He supposed that the pre-proto-willbeonce-Uralic language was spoken by the group of Eastern Europeans of the Ice Age which have the characteristic Eu19 Y-cromosome haplotype. (The Western group is the closest relative, the Basque-like peoples of the Eu18 type.) If he is right, Ugrian languages were much more frequent a few thousand years ago, but almost became extinct for now with a few exception.

Hung. béka "frog" is ultimately part of the Altaic stock (see Starostin et al., "Etymological Dictionary of the Altaic Languages," II, p.920). It is a borrowing from Turkic into Hungarian, Persian and some other languages (see Sevortian, "Etimologicheskii slovar' tiurkskikh iazykov," II (1978), pp.40-42).

Benkõ et al. "A magyar nyelv történeti-etimológiai szótára," III, p. 1151, consider virág ("flower") a variant of világ "light") and cite a variety of Indo-European semantic parallels light-flower.

It is an interesting hypothesis.

Well, difficult thing. My vote would go to link it with the words "virgacs" (birch, broom - a handful of tied small treebranches), and thus the werb ver (beat). Perhaps...

Khanty has been explained as deriving from a term meaning "person" *kunta etc cf. Hung "had" "army" (Khanty "xânt" "army"). Whether this has anything to do with word or ethnonym Hun (the original form of which is far from clear) is uncertain. Németh ("A honfoglaló magyarság kialakulása, 2nd ed. Bp., 1991), p. 57 attempted to connect hun, kun/qun, kün, kümün, xum, kum etc., all denoting, "person, people" etc. but this, as far as I know, has not found wide acceptance.

I think, the first part is OK, but the second is not. As far as I know, the name of the Cumans (quman) does not appear in the shorter form in place names in the East, and thus the longer form "quman" must be the original, instead of the "qun" form. Németh had several other serious problems, like not considering the V read of the Greek "beta" letter, reading it always to B in the late Roman, early MA Greek texts.

In terms of the new codex, one would have to explain why there appear to be Turkic and Ugric (Hungarian) words in "Hunnic". This is possible, but it will require a great deal of argumentation, not to mention a recasting of early Hungarian history.

The recasting process is already going on. Even the Academy seems to be in splitting, some of the members are defending the old theories, which was obviously supported by political reasons, and bleeding from thousand wounds, while others are considering also the new discoveries - like the highest incidence of the Eu19 haplotype in the Hungarians (you may know the Semino et al. article in Science, 2000).

I guess I will have to wait for the book - hopefully it will include a facsimile of the Armenian text.

It must be there otherwise it is difficult to take it seriously.

Gabor

---------------------
Dear Gabor,
Many thanks for your interesting comments. The Szelers (Szekely) have been the subject of debate for a very long time.

The whole of the region, extending into Ukraine and Southern Russia is filled with place names and river names of Iranian origin, cf. Danube, Dnestr, Dnepr, Don, Donets (all from Iranian dan/don < Old Iran. danu "water" dan- "to flow quickly" etc.). The area was successively the home to a number of Iranian peoples from the Scythians and Sarmatians up to the Alans. János Harmatta has done fundamental work on that. Modern Hungarian still retains traces of that interaction (eg. asszony "woman" < Alanic akhsin. hid "bridge < khid, kard "sword" < kart etc.). Similar borrowings are found in other Ugric languages and Volga Finnic. The Alanic tribes were widespread over the region and Iranian nomadic populations have been interested in the fur trade since the first millennium BC and were in contact with these peoples. You can get some sense of the interaction from Éva Korenchy's study, Iranische Lehnwörter in den obugrischen Sprachen (Budapest, 1972).

The linguists have been up and down these paths for a long time - often with very good results. Archaeological finds, in the absence of written texts - even of the most primitive form - pose greater problems of interpretation as elements of material culture travel and groups of different ethno-linguistic origins will often share, archaeologically, many cultural markers. The growing study of DNA should tell us much more about these populations - although here too one must be very cautious. Although there are connections between DNA groupings and language families and I think that we are just beginning to learn more about this important topic, languages often move around and are adopted (for a variety of reasons) by groupings of peoples for whom they were not original tongues. Uralic-Basque connections would be a great stretch indeed.

Best,
Peter

Re: Hun Language?
Post by admin on Feb 27, 2011, 2:26pm

Many thanx :) Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Mar 7, 2011, 12:05pm

Little update : I read the biggest forum about Hun language in here, and many people tried to get some more information from Detre, who lives in Budapest, but he mostly refused these inquiries. What we know now: The codexes were originally in a monastery at lake Van. They were delivered to Isfahan by Abbas sahinsah to a monastery called Surb Khac at the 17th century. At the moment the Iranian government takes the codexes as national heritage, and the Armenian church in Iran supports them in that, so the codexes are not visitable or searchable. At least thats what Detre says. Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Mar 7, 2011, 12:25pm

Update 2 : The Iranian national museum sent a copy of the Isfahan codex last year to Dr. Kiszely, a well known antropologist, according to him. A book about it was expected at the end of 2010, but until now there is silence about the research. Re: Hun Language?
Post by admin on Mar 8, 2011, 11:42am

Heh, I don't know but it's most probably fake. Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Mar 8, 2011, 11:54am

Mar 8, 2011, 11:42am, admin wrote:
Heh, I don't know but it's most probably fake.

Until they dont come up with proofs, I have to say that too. Re: Hun Language?
Post by ardavarz on Mar 9, 2011, 3:50am

Yes, that is probably the safest attitude for the present. Still, it's so tantalizing... Re: Hun Language?
Post by hjernespiser on Mar 9, 2011, 10:28am

Mar 9, 2011, 3:50am, ardavarz wrote:
Yes, that is probably the safest attitude for the present. Still, it's so tantalizing...

That is my sentiment too. :)

Given the comment from Peter Golden regarding the manuscript possibly being from a later date and therefore not Hun, but Hungarian, that would be even more tantalizing. Perhaps it is a record of the Savarti Asphaloi. Re: Hun Language?
Post by marcobello on Mar 20, 2011, 9:56pm

Hi,
I like your approach towards Hunnic language
so if you need any help with translation of Hungarian texts
I can do it for you in English, Spanish or Dutch.

feel free to ask
Re: Hun Language?
Post by ardavarz on Mar 21, 2011, 1:08am

Mar 20, 2011, 9:56pm, marcobello wrote:
Hi,
I like your approach towards Hunnic language so if you need any help with translation of Hungarian texts I can do it for you in English, Spanish or Dutch.

feel free to ask
 

That would be great! An English translation of Astvatzaturian's Hunnic textbook will be very much appreciated. (I mean this one from here: http://filozofia.wplanet.hu/tag_va.html which seems to be the fullest and most recently updated extract from his book).

I think it would be good if these texts can be made available in English in a forum where many people of various backgrounds could study them and contribute opinions. Thus we may come nearer to solving all this mystery around them. Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Mar 22, 2011, 3:16am

Im not sure if he even existed. Only 85 findings to his name in google, and all of them are Hungarian. Re: Hun Language?
Post by admin on Mar 23, 2011, 9:44pm

Raises up even more suspicion. Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Mar 24, 2011, 11:21am

There is a way to check if he existed or not, because -according to his necrologue- he published some books, and he was member of the Armenian scientific academy from 1993 until his death. He is doctorate of Yerevan University.

His main books :
- Dynamique évolutionnaire des langues – (Zarytos /Tyros/, 1973)
- Lingua Punica -(Venezia, 1981)
- Les langues scythoides - (Zarytos-Tyros, 1985)

I think these could be checked even if its not easy if there is nothing about them on the net. Re: Hun Language?
Post by ardavarz on Mar 25, 2011, 1:05am

Yes. I have hoped that some person somewhere could have access to those books and provide some more reliable information. Too bad I don't know French... Re: Hun Language?
Post by hjernespiser on Mar 25, 2011, 10:37am

He seems to have been, at least, a real person. They're selling the obit article on this website: http://www.matarka.hu/eng/cikk_list.php?fusz=80030
"Nagy Baka György: In memoriam Vahan Szongott Dénes "
I couldn't find him in the members list of the National Academy of Sciences in Armenia website though. http://www.sci.am/members.php?langid=1 Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Mar 25, 2011, 11:46am

Noone took the time to write an email to the academy of sciences or the university if he existed, everyone just asks it on forums. I think I write a few emails today if I have the time. Re: Hun Language?
Post by hjernespiser on Mar 26, 2011, 10:22am

There's several things from the obit that should be verifiable:
- His birth record
- His death record
- His religious order and ordination
- His presence at some university in Tyros (Tyre) Lebanon
- The "Société de Arménienne Zarytos" organization
- His publications, as noted by benzin
- His honorary membership in Armenian Academy of Sciences
- His honorary degree at University of Yerevan
- The 1992 "Man and Development" conference in Hungary
Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Mar 26, 2011, 1:54pm

I had time to make some translation from Astvatzaturian's research.

I skipped the 'bullnuts', and translated the words and the source only. Because its thousands of words, lets start with words starting with letter A.

Signs:
Sources:
Manuscript Library at Tyre (Lybanon): T (Fragments TF, The ten commandments)TT
Société Arménienne de Zarytos: Z („Dlimild Ashar", ZA„ Cosmology"ZK, The ten commandments ZT, Darrhajavaus ZD)
Armenian Church in Kirkuk: K (Fragments)
Surb Khac armenian monostery in Shareza: S (so called. „Guidebook"SG, „Epos"SE, The ten commandments ST)
Sources from Crete: SK (Fragments SKF, „at first there was the Word"SKL )
Concluded word: C

a és még,és pedig (and more, and plus)
TF
aagh ág (bough, limb, side)
ZK, SG
aaghudin ágazni, (to seperate into boughs or to different sides)
ZK
aalta át (across)
SE
aam is, bizony ám, ámpedig (however)
TF, ZA,
adin adni (to give)
TF,ZA,SG
ai és (and)
TF,TD, ZA,ZK, ZT, SG, SE, ST, , SKL
aigh ég (the sky)
ZA, ZK, SG, SE
aishi éspedig (and therefore)
TF, ZA, ZK,,SG,
ajge agy (brain)
ZK, SG
ajgen ajánlani (to recommend)
ZK
ajgin ajánlani (to recommend)
SG
Aji Hold (moon)
TF, ZA
ajs az (that)
TF,ZA,ZK,SG
ajsbit ma (today)
TF
Aldebaran Aldebaran (star)
SG
alje áll (stand)
SG
allin állni vmibõl (made of sg.)
SG, SE, ZA, ZK
altybyshum dialektika (knowledge of arguement)
ZK
alu alá (postposition : under sg.)
ZA, ZK, ,SG
alunic alulról (from underneath)
ZK, SG
alunishi alsó, (lower) alunishi red alsó rész (lower part)
1. ZK, SG 2. C
alunwra alúlra, lefelé (to underside)
ZK, SG
aluvatin alávetni magát, aláhelyezni magát (put himself under sg.)
ZA, ZK, ,SG
aluvin alátenni, alávetni (Put sg. under)
ZA, ZK,SG
alutyn alátenni, megtámasztani (v.ö. német unterstützen) (to chock)
alyn alul (down)
ZA, SG
alynelb legalul (most down)
ZA, SG
alynic phejynwra alulról felfelé (from down to up)
ZA, SG
alynwra lefelé (the way down)
ZA, SG
ani lánya vkinek (daughter of someone)
TF, ZA, ZK, SG, SE
amena minden (everything)
TF, ZA, ZK, SG, SE
amenajic mindennél (than everyting, like more important than everything)
ZA, SG, SE
amenaphejynelb (leges)legfelül (uppermost)
ZK, SG, SE
amenaalynishi legalsó (bottommost)
ZK, SG
amenad…mindenség, mindenek (the whole everything)
ZA, ZK, SG
amendekh mindenek (all of something or all of them)
TF
amendekhnek mindennek, mindeneknek (dativus) (of everything)
TF
amendinek mindenkinek (to everyone)
ZA, SG
amenid minden egyes (each)
ZA, SG
amenidzhi minden egyes (each)
SG, SE
amnig mindig (idõhatározó) (always)
SG, SE
amojst amaz ( távolra mutató névmás) (that)
TF, ZA, ZK, SG, SE
amyn mindig (idõhatározó) (always)
TF, ZA, ZK
Arana Dheneb (csillag) (star)
ZK, SG
ashar világ (world)
TF, ZA, ZK, SG, SE
ashkata lánc, szövetség (chain, union)
TD, ZA, SE
ashkataji szövetségi (united, allied)
TF (kizárólag egy helyen!)(only in one source!)
ashkatan szövetségi (allied)
TD(?), ZA, SE
ashkatan birum szövetségi birodalom (allied empire)
ZA, ZK
atha atya, apa (father)
TF, ZA, ZK, SG, SE
athalanda haza, pátria, =szóról szóra megfelel a német Vaterland-nak (home, fatherland)
TF
Athaira Altair (csillag) (star)
SG
auha óhaj, kivánalom (wish)
ZT, SG, ST
auharin kívánni, óhajtani (to wish sg.)
ZT, SG, ST
avamaia nagyanya, nagymama (grandmother)
SG
Aveni Vega (csillag) (star)
ZK, SG, SE
azad szabad (free)
TF, ZA, ZK, SG, SE
azadatagh szabadító, felszabadító, megszabadító (liberator)
TF
azadatin felszabadítani, megszabadítani (to liberate)
C
az sugár(?)(ray, beam?)
TF
azda sugár (ray, beam)
ZA, ZK, SG
azdin sugározni (beaming)
ZA, ZK
azdigh csillag (star)
TF, ZA, ZK, SG, SE
azdighkert csillagkép (szószerint: csillagkert) (star constellation, more precisely : garden of stars)
ZK, SG
azdighum 1.csillaghalmaz, csillagcsoport, galaxis 2. csillagkép: SG (galaxy, group of stars)
ZA, ZK, SG
Azrateni Hamal (csillag) (star)
ZK, SG Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Mar 26, 2011, 1:56pm

Just to make clear : first the Hunnic, second the Hungarian and then the (English version) Re: Hun Language?
Post by ardavarz on Mar 27, 2011, 1:04am

Thank you very much for this translation!

This way is much easier to use the source without checking every word in online dictionaries which takes enormous quantity of time. We can hope now to advance much faster in studying these texts. Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Mar 27, 2011, 4:26pm

Words starting with B

baa 1. nagy emlõsállat (big mammal), 2. shuchy baa: szent állat (saint animal)
1.: TF, SG, 2.: ZK, SG
Baajnekheni Regulus (csillag) (a star)
ZK, Sg
Baajnekhvork Algieba (csillag) (a star)
ZK, SG
bana lábszár (shin)
SG
bar: jó. Középfok: barb, felsõfok: barelb. (bar:good, barb:better, barelb:best)
ZA, ZK, SG
bara lándzsa (lance, pike)
SG
Bara(azdighkert) Taurus-Bika (csillagkép,jelentése: Lándzsa) (Taurus constellation, meaning : Pike)
barile jól (módhatározó) (good, like I feel good)
SG
barili jól (módhatározó) (good, like I feel good)
SG
barr szó (word)
ZT, SG
barrild szótár (dictionary)
SG
barum jószág, (régi magyar értelemben vett „barom”.) (domesticated animal, as the old hungarian meaning of:barom)
SG
baryn jól, kiválóan (módhatározó) (good, perfect, as an adverb)
SG
beeh be (határozószóként) (in to: as an adverb, like going into)
SG, SE
beej be (határozószóként) (in to: as an adverb, like going into)
SE
beejvyle belül (határozószó) (inside)
ZA, ZK, SG
beejvyli: belüli (határozóból képzett melléknév) (adjevtive made of the adverb, like the things inside sg.)
SG
beejvyltel belülrõl (from inside)
ZK
beeka béka (frog)
Beeka (azdighkert) Capricornus – Bak (csillagkép, jelentése: Béka) (Capricornus constellation, meaning:frog)
belee be, befelé (határozószó, felszólításént is) (in, as an imperative, like go inside !)
SG, SE
belewy…belé (határozószó, felszólításként is) (into, as an imperative, like go inside !)
SG, SE
ben vmin belül, magy ban, ben (postposition, inside sg.)
SG, ZA
bein vmin belül lenni (being inside sg.)
ZA, SG
beela belülrõl mozgató lélek, belsõõ üreg, barlang (the soul wich moves us from inside, cave)
SG, SE
beelajic belülrõl (határozószó) (from inside)
SG, SE
beelic belülrõl (határozószó) (from inside)
ZA, ZK
bende gyors (fast, quick)
SG, ZK
bendyn gyorsan (faster)
SG, ZK
bery felesleges (unnecessary)
SG, SE
beryjin feleslegesen (unnecessarily)
SG,
berym feleslegesség (superfluity)
SG
beryn felelegesen (határozószó) (unnecessarily)
SG, TT, ZT
Bethelgeuze Betelgeuze (csillag) (a star)
SG
bi nap (idõ) (a day)
TF, ZA, ZK, SG, SE
bijuum nappal (daytime)
SG, SE
bima ma (idõhatározó szó) (today)
SG, SE
bir szövetség (alliance)
SG, ZA, ZD
birenusin foglalkozni vkivel, vmivel, bekebelezõdni vmibe (treating sg or so., annected by, like being part of an alliance)
ZA, SG
birild birtok (land)
SG, SE
birum birodalom (empire)
SG, ZA
bisyn: biztosan, bizonyosan (módhatározó) (for sure, surely)
TF
bite betû (letter, character)
SG
bollob denevér (bat)
SG
Bollob (azdighkert) denevér (Cassiopeia, csillakép) (bat, the cassiopeia constellation)
SG
bor bor (wine)
SG
bortalla bordal (wine song)
TF
buur felület, felszín (bizonyos test felülete, felszíne) (surface of sg.)
TF, ZK
byshen beszélni (to talk)
SG, SE
byshum beszéd (speech)
SG, SE
chun harcos (fighter, warrior)
SG, SE
Chun(azdighkert) Canis Maior (csillakép, jelentése: Harcos, Férfi) (Canis Maior constellation, meaning:warrior man)
SG
chunile hunul (módhatározó) (in Hunnic)
chymin inni (to drink)
TF, ZA, SG, SE
Re: Hun Language?
Post by ardavarz on Apr 9, 2011, 11:42pm

In Old Bulgarian material was found the calendar term "verenialem" thought to be Hunno-Bulgarian name for "first" (alem) month in the year of Wolf (böri) or in another interpretation Dragon (or rather Lizard - varan).

Here the Hunnic word for "first" is elenishi. There is also elyn meaning "one, alone", which is very close to Bulgarian alem or elem (from another source).

Also "Vereni"(virtually identical with Bulgarian term!) is given as the name of the star Antares (Aplha Scorpionis). In Chinese astronomy Antares (or "Fire Star") is part of a constellation now related to the group of Rabbit but very close to the next belonging to Tiger (= Wolf in Hunno-Bulgarian).

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but it seems interesting... Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on Apr 11, 2011, 11:10am

The word elem exists in hungarian language as well, it means one piece of something, or one part of something. Re: Hun Language?
Post by ardavarz on May 1, 2011, 12:53am

Would somebody tell something about the content of this text:

http://osmagyar.kisbiro.hu/modules.php?n....a-486cbedc7a0b7

It is supposed to be fragments from some Hunnic epic called "Dlimild Ashar" i.e. "Diamond World". It is really difficult for me to decipher it without proper knowledge of Hungarian (I use an automatic translator).

Thanks in advance! Re: Hun Language?
Post by benzin on May 1, 2011, 1:19am

Its some kind of poem about an Askatan attack where the two leaders Donud and Cerned starts to invade a swampland and makes the borders of scythia as wide as it has no any gates. the name of the land they starts to invad is Ghereghit.

The second chapter is fully mistycal about the land of Gheregit. Stars became shining 2000 times more than the brightest ones before, light sheeps were rushing through the lands, and light birds were flying everywhere.

The third chapter is about they find a big black mouth in Gheregit where is no god, and its the opponent of the world, nothing shines there. Noone came back from that big black mouth but Donud and Cerned.

Sg. like this Re: Hun Language?
Post by njohn on Aug 31, 2011, 12:20am

Mar 25, 2011, 10:37am, hjernespiser wrote:
He seems to have been, at least, a real person. They're selling the obit article on this website: http://www.matarka.hu/eng/cikk_list.php?fusz=80030
"Nagy Baka György: In memoriam Vahan Szongott Dénes "
I couldn't find him in the members list of the National Academy of Sciences in Armenia website though. http://www.sci.am/members.php?langid=1

He died 21st May 2008, in TYROS (Lebanon). (Was born in 2nd February 1932, Erzsébetváros, ERDÉLY, HUNGARY-Transilvany).

He worked at Armenian University of Tyros. Re: Hun Language?
Post by ardavarz on Sept 3, 2011, 2:40am

It seems that the materials on this site:
http://filozofia.wplanet.hu/tag_va.html
are periodically updated. The old texts grow in content and some new ones appear. I don't know if all those are original or someone just tries to develop a new "Hun" conlang (even so I like the idea, but it would be better if there was more information available not only in Hungarian). Re: Hun Language?
Post by massaget on Oct 3, 2011, 12:12pm

I think this whole page is a fake, otherwise scholars would take much more effort to research the words. When these texts came up many people tried to get information from Csaba Detre, the author of the first Hunnic text books, but he never answered to the inquiries, where and how he got the words list from Armenia. Because of the weird circumstances these texts appeared no serious scholar researches them.

That Armenian linguist (Astvatzaturian) is probably a fake person too. Re: Hun Language?
Post by admin on Oct 3, 2011, 8:45pm

I think the same too. Re: Hun Language?
Post by gyemi on Nov 16, 2011, 10:09pm

Benzin, Any more of your Hun/Magyar/Angol dictionary? Keep it coming!

Links to dictionaries (in Hungarian)

http://filozofia.wplanet.hu/tag_va.html

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Vahan Anhaghth Astvatzaturian

Vahan Anhaghth Astvatzaturian professzor a nyelvtudományok legendás művelője,
az ókor-tudományok világklasszisa.

1932. február 2-án látta meg a napvilágot az erdélyi Erzsébetvárosban, mint Szongott Dénes, Szongott Miklós történelemtanár fia, Szongott Kristóf, a híres szamosújvári örmény történész-tanár dédunokaöccse. 1945-ben a család szüleivel és nénjével Olaszországba menekül, s Velencében, az örmény kultúra nyugati fellegvárában települ le. Diákéveit ott tölti, majd beiratkozik a mechitaristák egyetemére. 1955-ben szerez doktori diplomát örmény nyelv- és történelemből. 1957-ben pappá szentelik, s belép a Mechitarista Rendbe. Ekkor veszi fel családja eredeti nevét (Astavatzaturian), amelyet II. József törölt el 1784-ben, s kényszerítette a családra annak német tükörfordítását: Sohn-Gottes.

A rend 1958-ban Libanonba küldi, a Tyrosi Örmény Egyetemen örmény nyelvet és indogermán összehasonlító nyelvészetet tanít. 1961-ben közép-ázsiai, majd észak-afrikai kéziratgyűjtő és régészeti expedíciókban vesz részt, ahonnan 1967-ben tér vissza Tyrosba. Ekkor az egyetem professzorává fogadja. 1968-1970 között megújítja az ősi szervezet, a Société Arménienne de Zarytos történészi kutatásait. Itt mintegy 80 kiváló, többnyire örmény származású történész-régész-nyelvész kutatásait irányítja. 1973-1976 között libanoni kulturális attasé az Iráni Császárságban.

Elképesztő nyelvtudása még ugyancsak polyglott munkatársait is elkápráztatta. Magyar és örmény anyanyelvén kívül az alábbi nyelveket beszélte magas fokon: Olasz, veneto-i, francia, spanyol, portugál, katalán, gallego, león-i, román, német, angol, holland, flamand, svéd, dán, izlandi, ír, kimru (welsh), finn, észt, lív, orosz, lengyel, ukrán, cseh, szlovák, szerb, bolgár, albán, új-görög, perzsa, kurd, hindi, grúz, csecsen, török (számos közép-ázsiai rokonnyelveivel), új-héber, arab, kopt.

A kihalt nyelvek közül a pun nyelvnek elsőszámú tudora volt, de nagyon jól ismerte az ó-görög, latin, ó-örmény, ó-perzsa, ó-arab, szír, ó-héber, ó-egyiptomi, szanszkrit nyelveket is. A hun-szkíta nyelvemlékek felderítésében és összegyűjtésében oroszlánrészt vállalt. Foglakozott az etruszk nyelv problematikájával is.

Nem szívesen publikált, nem maradt sok publikációja az utókorra, nem szerette tanulmányait kisebb cikkekben szétszórni, kizárólag összefoglaló, monografikus tanulmányokat jelentetett meg. Hallatlanul szerény, hallgatag ember volt, nem szeretetett "szerepelni." Művei közül kiemelkedik a Dynamique Évolutionnaire des langues (Zarytos-(Tyros, 1973) c. hatalmas nyelvfilozófiai monográfiája, a Lingua Punica (Venezia, 1981) nyelvészeti monográfia, valamint a szkitoid nyelvekről írt első átfogó publikáció: Les langues scythoides - (Zarytos-Tyros, 1985). 1993-ban az Örmény Tudományos Akadémia tiszteletbeli tagjává választotta, és a Jereváni Egyetem díszdoktorává avatta. 1992-ben járt utoljára Magyarországon, ekkor részt vett a Filozófiai Vitakör "Ember és Fejlődés" konferenciáján.

Vahan Anhaghth Astvatzaturian 2008. május 21-én húnyt el a libanoni Tyrosban (a mai Tir).

Letölthető dokumentumok:

Kormotheosz

Hozzászólás Asztvatzaturian "Kormotheosz" c. munkájához

Lezukuna, azaz Ashkatan Szkíta-Hun nyelvkönyv - 1. rész

Lezukuna, azaz Ashkatan Szkíta-Hun nyelvkönyv - 2. rész

Ashkatan-Magyar szótár

Magyar-Ashkatan szótár

Ashkatan-Lezukuna-3

A Csodáról

DLIMILD ASHAR I.

DLIMILD ASHAR II.

Ishummar bil

Chunk Walmy

Eeligh Ashkatan

Shuchy Tikirghekh

Shuchy Quran

Seuso Fragmenta

Ashkatan-Birum-Madyei

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